Conversation with a twitter friend about Internet Pornography Bill
About Bayanda Mzoneli
Bayanda Mzoneli is a public servant. He writes in his personal capacity.
This morning I tweeted about the meeting Deputy Minister Gigaba held with ISPA and WASPA. My tweets prompted a discussion with a fellow tweeter. As it got intense we took the discussion to Gmail chat for ease of use. Below is the full edited conversation.
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3:09 PM Bayanda: Before we were interrupted [on Twitter], you were saying…?
ongopotse: lol
3:10 PM 1. We need to protect the children…and child porn is to be eliminated at every point
The people who abuse kids, by taking pics of them, in a compromising state should be punished.
3:12 PM However….
2. In the manner the government is intending on tracking the “CP distributors” will open up a pandora’s box
3:13 PM We all are aware that the honourable Cde Gigaba is not a fan of Pornographic material (and he has a right not to)
3:14 PM so whats stopping him from insisting that all porn sites, in RSA be shut down
in the name of “protecting the kids”
??
ongopotse: the Technology industry can govern themselves (sounding like the media)
Bayanda: Let us start on the background
ongopotse: Ok
3:19 PM Bayanda: The Film and Publication Board (FPB) is the classification authority in South Africa for Films and Publications that enforces the Film and Publication Act
it classifies all films, including those to be hired or sold at adult shops, cinema distribution and video hire outlets
3:20 PM it also classifies various types of publications, including adult magazines
3:21 PM the classification is to advise the consumer on the contents of the material they intend consuming so that they make informed decision for themselves and their families, in particular children
as you can see most of this work relates to physical material as opposed to electronic media
3:22 PM ongopotse: true
Bayanda: the current discussion is essentially saying “WHAT IS TO BE DONE?”
ongopotse: but my point is with regards to the electronic media
Bayanda: it is an effort to try and interact with the public, interested parties, industry experts and so on in finding a solution
ongopotse: What about the Porn Bill drafted by Jasa?
3:23 PM in August Mr Gigaba mentioned the Bill, and that he intends to put thru Parliament to get it approved
Bayanda: The Bill drafted by Jasa is not a Bill of government, it is their contribution to the discussion. It has no legal standing whatsoever, for now
3:24 PM ongopotse: so then why did he want it to be fast tracked?
Bayanda: What Gigaba has consistently said is that he has requested legal advice from the South African Law Reform Commission (LRC) about “WHAT IS TO BE DONE?”
3:25 PM He wanted the Law Reform Commission to fast track the process of providing guidance
ongopotse: “smoke and mirrors”
Bayanda: He sent a request to the LRC in September 2009
he received the response in April 2010 saying they are doing further research on the matter
3:26 PM there has been no response from them since then
ongopotse: this argument surfaced around June this year
around the time of the FPB Symposium
Bayanda: No.
3:31 PM ongopotse: to what
3:33 PM Bayanda: Jasa brought the Bill to Gigaba’s attention in a meeting in May 2010
this was after they have heard him remark that he was awaiting advice from LRC
they said there is no need to wait for LRC, here is the Bill
3:34 PM he told them the bill will contribute to the LRC process and the general public discussion on the matter
since then the matter keeps resurfacing in various milestones
3:35 PM including in June 2010 when Gigaba launched the FPB Campaign Against Pornography
and, as you have said, later during the Symposium
but the Bill aside
3:36 PM ongopotse: so what is your office proposing…
maybe then we can argue based on that
Bayanda: the position of Mr Gigaba is that, on legislative matters, we will await the LRC recommendations
3:37 PM however, that does not stop us from having discussions with various other stakeholders about “WHAT IS TO BE DONE?”
3:38 PM ongopotse: I will wait for the draft bill from the Home Affairs, and not get excited by a bill from Jasa
3:39 PM Bayanda: that is ok, but avoid making the assumption that the LRC will say we need legislation
they may very well propose amendments to existing legislation
or even suggest self-regulatory mechanisms
we don’t know what they will say
ongopotse: which I will fully second, as a member of WASPA
3:40 PM and as a Tax paying citizen
Bayanda: but self-regulation has proved inadequate in other sectors and seems undesirable in this instance
the main thing for Content Producers is profit, not welfare of children
3:41 PM and if children downloading their content gives them money, I doubt they would be interested in cutting back their revenues
3:42 PM you need a more objective mechanism that will balance interests of all parties
3:43 PM ongopotse: you are judging the whole sector based on an assumption
secondly, it is not the job of the service provider to guard what Your kids are doing online and on their mobiles
that’s what parents are for
3:44 PM Bayanda: it’s like saying why arrest a father for raping his daughter
ongopotse: No that’s a bad comparison
Bayanda: we can’t go ahead and classify a DVD at the FPB
and then say the same movie can play online without any restriction
ongopotse: we’re saying, the father must make sure his daughter is not at a club, at 10pm, when she is 16 years old
3:45 PM we will however try and ask for her ID, at the door
if the ID is fake, and we couldn’t tell the legitimacy of it
we shouldn’t be held accountable
Bayanda: that is ok, as long as we agree on 16 via a credible mechanism and not just throw a darts at numbers and hope it lands on 16
ongopotse: yes
Bayanda: this is where government comes in
ongopotse: true
3:46 PM no one can work in isolation, when it comes to these issues
Bayanda: and government would be interested in specific measures if the ID is fake
I think industry players should not be paranoid about these discussions
ongopotse: and we would like to make sure that Government has controls that there are no fake IDs
Bayanda: indeed
and in case there are, government should act
3:47 PM and not throw hands in the air in despair
ongopotse: well ANC members are making “paranoia inducing” statements
Bayanda: Lol
ha ha ha ha ha
he he he he
tl tl tl tl tl
that is a different matter altogether
but let us proceed to it
3:48 PM ongopotse: Not really
Bayanda: what statement is that?
ongopotse: it was ironic that the whole Porn Bill hit the media stands round about the same time that the Media bill was gaining momentum
on the far side, we have Juls screaming Nationalisation
so every sector in South Africa is on their toes, asking who’s next
3:49 PM Bayanda: let us not conflate issues
Nationalisation is a different issue
ongopotse: but I am not
it is a matter of what is available for me to consume
in terms of media
3:50 PM Bayanda: note that there is no Media Bill that exists at this moment
ongopotse: and if the Government is hitting one industry, what is stopping them from hitting another
but there’s enough wind around it, that it will be blown into existence in nano-seconds
remember, the ANC is Majority
and to pass new legislation is very very easy
3:51 PM Bayanda: The Protection of Information Bill is not an effort to hit at any industry, it is a government’s effort to strengthen protection of information
ongopotse: but my constitution, says I have a right to that information
so why are you protecting that information
understanding that we also have legislation that protects, NIA information
Bayanda: information is being protected from various things, including alteration and so on
3:52 PM you’re right, the legislation that protects NIA information is the one that is being strengthened
let me paint you a gap and then you will tell me how else to fill it
if the Cabinet discusses a sensitive issue
it is then classified as top secret
3:53 PM and all government officials respect that
but then the moment the document lands at Mail and Guardian, excerpts of it are published
which makes the top secret classification hollow
3:54 PM what the Protection of Information Bill suggests is that if the document is Top-Secret, even if it leaked, you can’t publish it
there is a process to declassify documents
and that is what should be followed
that is the essence of the Bill
3:55 PM it criminalizes publishing a classified document by anyone including the media
the problem is that current legislation is such that the media may still publish and there are no mechanisms to remedy that
3:56 PM remember they may even misquote the document and you have no way of correcting them because you would need to declassify the document in order to correct them
extending the net that covers government officials to also cover everyone in the country including the media, how else would you protect classified documents?
3:59 PM ongopotse: punish members of Parliament
Bayanda: Lol
hehehe
for what now?
ongopotse: if I gave out documents belonging to my company
I will be fired and be charged with espionage
why cant we do the same to MPs
4:00 PM if documents is discussed in their environment…
they are at work
and they need to suffer the cost of giving out such info
leave the media
if tell the media, that the Deputy Minister’s spokes person did a/b/c
and I am a “reliable source”
4:01 PM why must I punish the messenger
4:02 PM Bayanda: you’re right
but that is a simplistic way of looking at it
ongopotse: I AM??!?!?
Question:
4:03 PM If this Protection of Info bill was passed, 5 years
ago
do you think all these cases of corruption against civil servants, would have been out in the open
(Mail & Guardian….)
4:04 PM Bayanda: I’d say yes and no
4:05 PM ongopotse: explain
Bayanda: Yes in the sense that the majority of the information about is not classified information and the majority of corruption in government is exposed by government itself
ongopotse:
4:06 PM but then, the people in government who are exposing the corruption would have been arrested..
thus limiting the “Whistle blower effect”
Bayanda: I’d say no, in a sense that the few cases that a dug out by the media which are a minority that may have been classified would not have been out
4:07 PM ongopotse: My Point:
Bayanda: no
you can’t be arrested for exposing corruption
ongopotse: Well, if the corruption is discussed in a “classified environment”
4:08 PM Bayanda: I like making a practical example with the Browse Mole report, I am not sure if you’re familiar with it
?
ongopotse: no
I’m not familiar…but give me the summary
4:09 PM Bayanda: it was a report of an intelligent gathering exercise that was leaked to the media sometime ago
the full version can be downloaded at www.friendsofjz.co.za
it contained allegations about Heads of State in the continent
4:10 PM that they were funding Cde Jacob Zuma to overthrow President Mbeki
ongopotse: I am downloading it from Parliamentary monitoring group
4:11 PM Bayanda: However, DG Frank Chikane distanced government from it saying it was never commissioned by government and its content was not true
however, if you are to look at that as an example
4:12 PM to say had it not been wisely managed, it could have caused a serious fall out between SA and it’s partners in the continent
perhaps the people who published it do not care about that
that is why you need mechanisms to handle that
4:13 PM foreign relations is a matter we should all share responsibility on
even if you were to arrest an official who would have leaked the document
4:14 PM the fact that it is published, irreversible diplomatic fallout may have taken place that won’t be repaired by the arrest of the official
so you need more than just what the private companies do with regard to espionage
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5 minutes |
4:20 PM ongopotse: true
Governing is a bit of a multi-dimensionalissue
but then we need to be careful not to empower government to be a Dictator ship
4:21 PM well Cde Bayanda
thank you for schooling me on these issues
Bayanda: Cool
4:30 PM great chatting to you
since I am lazy to blog
ongopotse: No sir…it was great chatting to you
Bayanda: I shall edit this chat and post it as my blog
ongopotse: i will be working on my blog, from next month
and I will attach links to your sites
Bayanda: Cool!
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